FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TimAllen.com Forum Index -> Lighting the Light! A positive Approach to the World
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 8:49 am    Post subject: response Reply with quote

My, my...did I miss the 'screaming fits'? I speak only for myself:

Through the discussions of two people, the very point of political/scientific/moral ethics has been upheld to the nth degree. A lot of words and definitions over ONE question of shoulds or shouldn'ts; bottom line, noone's mind is going to be changed. We BELIEVE what we believe. These lengthy tedious discussions are the reasons so many things stay on the fence of decision. I've always called them the 'Yes, but' lines of defense. Having been involved in so many issues over my lifetime, and seen first hand how the 'Yes, but' creates a lot of static yet very little forward movement, I'm pretty much 'lectured out'. If you enjoy the debating, that's fine, but simply call the exercise what it is.

To me, these discussions have been pretty exclusive. Some of us on this site actually have quite a bit of education, and have investigated all of these things, for decades. We understand the definitions of the words we are using, and others understand how they are implied. Perhaps some on the site have not the 'formal' training, but do have a lot of intuitive and heartfelt insight and beliefs. We are all equal here.

And when you tell me how you can legally and/or morally divide the body of a woman and an unborn child, do let me know. Perhaps science can remove the fetus and place it in someone elses' womb? Ah, but that's another discussion for another time.

Woman and children are not 'objects' to be discussed according to my belief/political/scientific hopes. Someones' soul beats its wings in the hearts of these people, and unless I am willing to take their life into mine as one of my own, their right to freedom will always be first, for me.

K.C. has probably spoken more eloquently than anyone else on this issue. She has given both sides of the story. That's all I've been trying to say. Walk a bit in someone else's shoes, and then state your absolutes. L.
My point, (which doesn't need defining) is a simple one:
Back to top

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:00 am    Post subject: Truth and consequences Reply with quote

To all,

Interesting conversation here.

To my knowledge truth is truth, it is not relative, it is not open to debate or change. It simply is because it was before we were, and it will be long after we are gone. Truth is immutable. A truth here is a relevant on the other side of the galaxy. If it is not, it is not a truth.

Morals, laws and morays are adjusted by ech society to fit their sensiblities and requirements.

If you did not know:
There is a moral difference between killing and murder. The Bible only mentions murder, in Greek it is (phon-yonce)(preplanned).

The taking of a life is serious business, to take away all someone has and all they ever will have not to mention those affected by the loss.

Under certain conditions (self protection, mutual protection, preemptive protection, mercy, etc) killing is a nessasary requirement for social order.
We think it humane to put an animal out of their misery when they are waiting to die or in great pain with no hope of getting better, but we seem to have a moral problem with corporal punishment for multiple sex offenders and other career criminals.
Why can't we use the same thought process (mercy) to administer justice to the victims, the society and the offenders?
Why do we fail to use good reasoning across the board?

If the precondition to murder is preplanning then how is war considered to be moral at all? The military must preplan alot of deaths to win a war.

All too often I have heard the arguement of abortion is a woman's problem and a woman's choice... not unless she impregnated herself with her own sperm.
Two people must be involved in this decision and perhaps a third or more if we are talking about an under age or incestual(sp) affair.
Abortion is a terrible alternative and must be the last choice when all other choices have been considered.

In this day and age, there is no excuse for an unwanted or unexpected pregnancy.

Put a bone bag on it!, wrap that rascal!, get it snipped! or just choose to wait for the right time with the right person.

Back to top

Joined: 03 Aug 2005
Posts: 8
Location: The Denver Area

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote


Perhaps I didn't make myself clear (for that, I apologize); I wan't saying that we had been experiencing screaming fits here. I was expressing my relief that there had, instead been an absence of it in the discussions to be found in this forum.

It was a compliment to all involved - not a slap at anyone.

I've never claimed that we were doing anything other than debating - such was the point. I will, however, point out that I offered a concrete suggestion for forward movement in my last major posting.

Woman and children are not 'objects' to be discussed according to my belief/political/scientific hopes. Someones' soul beats its wings in the hearts of these people, and unless I am willing to take their life into mine as one of my own, their right to freedom will always be first, for me.

Again...true freedom is the point, and it must address the humanity of each party involved - the mother, the father, and the unborn child. The concept of preserving the status quo as some sort of "neutral" position is rather disingenuous, in that it truly only preserves "freedom" or "choice" for one of the three parties involved - the mother. Do I have a perfect notion of how or when to draw the line? I have my own opinions on the matter, of course, but I have already recognized that in order to acheive some semblance of a remedy to the disaster of widespread abortion, both sides will have to compromise. I will have to refuse to let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and accept that the American public is likely not ready to simply ban abortion (as a method of birth control) outright (and as such, that first trimester abortions will likely continue to be performed), and the pro-choice side should be willing to make concessions on partial birth and second and third trimester procedures.

The request to "walk in someone else's shoes" is a valid one; but in order for it to work, it has to cut both ways. Our current schema regarding abortion policy doesn't allow for that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:34 am    Post subject: response Reply with quote

Point taken.

Until the issue envelops all involved ( accdg. to my count, that's 3), this will remain a debate. Pull the mens' rights into it, and something will change. Probably K's reply...they'll snip, cover, or refuse. Till then...educate and hope something between the ears and mind clicks...higher, not lower! L.
Back to top

Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1532
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the precondition to murder is preplanning then how is war considered to be moral at all? The military must preplan alot of deaths to win a war

War is not preventable for a simple person, unwanted pregnancy is.
Or did I get something wrong here?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1532
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just discovered this: http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/PBA_Images/PBA_Images_Heathers_Place.htm

When I looked at the pictures I got sick. I still donīt understand, how a woman can terminate a healthy unwanted baby. In fact I donīt understand the doctor that performs it on a healthy fetus.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:52 am    Post subject: Abortion Reply with quote

Everyone has been pretty well behaved so far in this discussion and been quite careful not to get too "emotional". Now if you'll permit me, I'd like to share a couple of emotional experiences related to both sides of the issue.

One day we were driving down Woodward on our way downtown with our baby boy in the back seat. We were quite surprised to see a couple of miles of placard-waving, screaming people. The placards said things like "murdering babies". It turned out to be a mass anti-abortion demonstration. Imagine what it would be like if you had an unplanned pregnancy and were feeling scared and confused already and encountered the likes of that. The whole experience left me wondering how anyone could be so angry and callous towards someone they don't even know in who is in a desperate situation.

The other experience was at my OBGYN. I was a little older when I was pregnant with my little girl, and the physicians at the practice really pressured me to have an amniocenesis. They showed me all kinds of graphs and charts and said gloomy things about the statistics and very much wanted me to have one. When I told my husband what they said, he agreed that I had better go have one, so I did.

Fortunately, she was perfectly normal, but again, the whole experience left me feeling a little sick. First of all, I had already seen my beautiful, vigorous little girl on ultrasound waving her arms and legs happily. I had felt her ferocious kicks day and night. I really only wanted the ultrasound so that if she did have Down Syndrome I would have time to educate myself on any special care needs she might have before she was born. But of course the doctors kept repeating somberly that if they found anything wrong, I should seriously consider "doing something" about it. Secondly, as I learned, amnio can only be performed about half-way through the pregnancy, and it takes about four weeks to get the results. I seriously wondered who, if anyone, would want to terminate a pregnancy in the second semester, given that the baby was perfectly healthy otherwise.

In both cases I just felt that there was rather a lack of feeling for the woman involved.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:31 am    Post subject: response Reply with quote

Yours was an excellent point of view, I think, Canadienne. While we can change things, I believe there could be a better way, rather than putting things in peoples' faces. They appear like Yes and No kinds of things, but most things in life are never that simple. Those types of protests always seem like judgement calls, to me, regardless of the circumstance. Like the woman in Texas protesting the war with the crosses and names on them, the parents and families of those who disagreed with her removed their loved ones crosses. She had no right to be all inclusive. Even if you believe what you believe, you can't shove a placard up and expect some others not to feel intruded upon. And every day, people make judgement calls about others...

The only comment I can make with good conscious is (that) noone should have the right to tell another one what they can or cannot do with their bodies...I saw a young girl yesterday who broke my heart, she was so obviously anorexic. Would my saying anything, pro or con, help this girl? Me, a stranger? Or would my thoughts push her over an edge? We have to be tender with each others' hearts, I think. I believe that includes all things.
Back to top

PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:

Adoption is an option many women chose. But under what conditions? I suspect most adoptions, at least in the U.S. today, are by underage, unwed women still living at home. The choice has ultimately been made by her parents.

Actually less than 1% of pregnant teenagers place babies for adoption. The majority of birthmothers are in their 20's and have at least one year of college.
Back to top

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The last post has been a while ago. I would like to navigate this into another direction. Back in the 60īs in Europe there has been a scandal over the influence of the pill named "Contergan" (or Thalidomide). I recently saw a documentary about mothers, who gave birth after taking Contergan. Does anyone have any experiances with that? Does anyone like to talk about it? Or is that too private?

To everyone, who doesnīt know, what it is: It was prescribed by doctors in the 50ies and 60ies as a sleeping aid to pregnant women. It caused huge physical damage on the children.
Back to top

Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1532
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am awfully sorry, this went totally wrong. The post above was mine. Sometimes I click the link in my notificationmail, and I am not logged in, usually I am logged in automatically, I donīt understand, why this happens all the time. Sorry.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1532
Location: Austria

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody? Whatīs up folks, did you loose interest in this topic?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Joined: 10 Dec 2005
Posts: 11
Location: Columbus, Ohio

PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 9:00 pm    Post subject: I'm just an idiot in this town Reply with quote

Murders and Nonnegligent Manslaughter
Year 2002: Amount Ė 16,406

2005 statistics
Rapes: 83,631
Abortions - 853,485
% of abortions per pregnancy: 24.3% Estimated from the birthrate of 14.4/1000 population which was established in 2005.

Now really quick, why were these abortions done? Letís pick a few states and use their numbers and Iím not picking any in favoritism, for I would rather that my opinion be left in the dark. They are the first ones I come to.

Florida in 2003 had 89,995 abortions that were legal. The reasons given to those that had an abortion were as followed: (Youíll notice the numbers of abortions that apply to each category are listed to the right.)
Physical condition 514
Mental condition 80
Abnormal fetus 457
Personal choice 88,409
Other 535
Unknown 0

(The statistics for 2004 ďareĒ available but Iíll use the same year as Florida.
Rape 10
Incest 1
Maternal Physical Health 6
Maternal Life Endangered 160
Mental Health 733
Fetal Anomaly 35
Socio-economic 3,096
Contraceptive failure 766
No contraception used 1,185
Unknown 0
Total 5,992

This is interesting. And when we are talking about statistics, someone always brings up things like rapes that arenít reported. Which is a good idea, until you think about it. Letís take the number of reported Rapes in the United States in 2005 (83,631) and then letís assume 1 out of 3 rapes are reported. So now we have roughly 250,000 rapes that happened. And letís also assume that all of these rapes are not against men, but are all female victims. Which is being more than fair.
Now, medically speaking, we can say that 5% of these victims got pregnant. But, weíll be nice and say it was a fertile year and 10% were. So that gives us 25,000 that became pregnant. Now according to research about 50% of those that are raped and become pregnant- get an abortion. Other reasons being, adoption, keeping it and miscarriage. But, weíll assume that 100% had an abortion.
Which means that a good portion of abortions were due to rape. However, in this example I am being very, very, very, very, very, very generous on the subject and it is entirely impossible. The actual real results are assumed to be about .03%.

In the year 2000 in the United States the statistics show that:
230 abortions were made per 1000 live births by white women.
676 abortions were made per 1000 live births by black and other women.

Other Characteristics
These are based off of a study of 1313 abortions.
Age of woman:
Less than 15 years old . . . . . . . 9
15 to 19 years old . . . . . . . . . . 235
20 to 24 years old . . . . . . . . . . 430
25 to 29 years old . . . . . . . . . . 303
30 to 34 years old . . . . . . . . . . 190
35 to 39 years old . . . . . . . . . . 110
40 years old and over. . . . . . . 37

Number of prior induced abortions:
None . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .699
One. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 355
Two or more . . . . . . . . . . . . . 259

Some thoughts

According to these statistics and I am confident that they are pretty accurate. If they are off with the actual facts in reality, they are most definitely going to be close enough to still come to the same conclusions. First off, with the very last statistic, it is absolutely amazing I find, that such a high percentage of abortions out of that particular case were either their third or higher abortion. Then again, Iím not really surprised. It is also remarkable that nearly 50% of these were at least the second time they had received an abortion.

If that were to hold true in the United States as a whole, I think it would be very interesting indeed. I was surprised by this.

Also, it is also surprising that the number of abortions is outstanding compared to that of homicides in the United States. Which by the way, homicides arenít limited to murder.

I am not very surprised that these statistics point to abortions being done mostly by those in the lower class.

Now, one thing comes to mind about all of this. The ďrightsĒ thing. Yes, it is the body of the woman and it is her right to do with it as she pleases. I had a girlfriend once who refused to shave her legs, her right- her body. So I left her Ė my choice. I understand all of that and there is little question to the reasoning behind it.

Although it is my right here in the US to practice my freedom of speech, I cannot publicly say racist things against those that arenít white however. Which we all know that we have certain rights until they interfere with the rights of others.

Now, I assume that pro-choice people agree with me when I say that a fetus is not a being. It lacks a spirit and it lacks the ability to know anything at all. It is completely and 100% unaware of anything. A fetus is very comparable to the likes of an onion for example. It may make you cry, but once it is chopped up, we can enjoy our lives again.

On the other hand, Pro-life people would have to agree that all instances of abortion are wrong. So in the bizarre chance that a baby would be born with no legs or armsÖwait that isnít bad enough. If a baby was going to be a male and not have a unit, then you agree that he is better off alive.

Now I also think that if we never had wars or natural disasters or abortions, then the world would be a pretty crowded place! So on one hand we can argue that maybe abortion is just a modern form of natural selection. Then again, maybe it is a modern form of barbarism. Who knows? I mean the one question that I would like to know is whether or not they have a spirit.

Which, letís think for a minute. Weíll just come up with some off the wall theories here.
Letís assume that all kids that are 10 and younger go to Heaven no matter what. So this would mean that a fetus will go to heaven. Right? Well, if this is true then it would also be true that if they didnít have a spirit, then they wouldnít go to Heaven. Which would mean that by aborting a baby before it could get a spirit, then you robbed it of the chance to live in Heaven or whatever you believe. Which isnít a point to be actually considered, but itís fun to think about.

I guess in all actuality, the truth would be this. That abortions would probably be ok at certain times and under certain circumstances. But, sadly and I am willing to bet, that more so than not, they are abused. Abortions are like the welfare system I think. We abuse the right. If you are one of those that think welfare isnít abused, then you really should get your head checked. Listen to the song ďFirst of the monthĒ by Bone. It is true that the drug game is the most profitable at the first of the month. Why, cause the checks come rolling in. Same thing with abortion. I think it is abused and written off as a good excuse to get out of a bad situation.

I think perhaps, that it is a battle that will never be settled. Abortions will always be legal in the United States and there are many reasons for this. One being so people donít resort to the coat hanger.

My personal opinion though about all of this is that it is like the cloning of humans and stem cell research. People will stand against it, but it will be done. Period. You canít stop it and I canít either. Neither can the government. Cloning people will happen and robots will happen. It is the path we are on and it eventually has to happen. Same thing with abortions. Whether legal or not, they will happen.

So maybe instead of trying to make it a one way street that one side has to conform too, maybe it should be what it is, a personal issue. I donít agree with abortions and I - like everyone else, stand behind a limited fence. There are certain scenerios where I think it is acceptable. I canít claim an absolute stance in the matter because I havenít been in every situation myself. And since I havenít experience every single scenario that life has to offer, I canít dictate what decision is just or unjust.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger

Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Posts: 51
Location: Reutlingen, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gee, that statistic really shocks me. You know, that abortion statistic that shows how many abortions in what age....
Between 15 and 19 years old...
i think you should know about that age how to use contraceptions. (sorry the speeling)
i am nearly 15 myself and i just, wow..... that really takes my breath away. I knew that there are many problems about that, but..... uff....
I think abortions is a thing that you really have to see in diferent ways, but there is one thing you canīt deny, if yoo are just careful about having sex, and be sure about using contraceptions you donīt have to think about abortions.
Well, as i said, there are so many ways you have to look at an abortion, why did the kid "happen"? Whos fault was it *i mean, a condom can break, canīt it?*
All that stuff, but all in all, i think that, when you feel strong enough to be so silly and donīt use a contraception you really should feel strong enough to rais a kid!!!

well, sorry for that bad english...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message

Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 1602
Location: Croatia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My sister is 19,and she and her husbant wanted a kid,and they have a wery healthy little girl!
But I've watched on TV,that in some places,young girls who are even 12 get kids,and aggainst their will!And they have birth,and they are all ripped off,cos they are TOO young to have kids,and unfortunally,they can't ever have kids again.
Take Oprah for example,she was malested by her uncle when she was,I thing 9 or so,till she was 14!And she got pregnant,and she got birth to baby,and the baby died,and she also got all wriped off,and she can't ever have a kid again.
So,unfortunally,such things happen.
So,if you decide to have sex,and don't wanna a kid,think twice,or use contracepcion.
Think of how would it be to the kid if it ''happens''.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    TimAllen.com Forum Index -> Lighting the Light! A positive Approach to the World All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 4 of 5

Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Theme xand created by spleen.