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Jesus... the Man.
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MichiganLover



Joined: 07 May 2009
Posts: 29
Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:13 am    Post subject: Jesus the Man Reply with quote

Jane,
You state that what you are saying is what you interpet from studying the bible and I am just wondering where is says; "The trinity was incorporated into Christendom's religion by the Roman Catholic Church that wanted to bring pagans into their congregations (thereby increasing their fold, and their incomes). A lot of things were *made holy* through this practice and for that purpose" Being a Catholic I find it offensive that you would imply that money would be the only reason for the Catholic church to desire to bring pagans into the church. It is my understanding that our responsiblity as believers in any religion is to convey our message of love, charity and kindness to ALL and to show everyone that their lives can become more fullfilling by believing and sharing their faith, hope and charity. It doesn't matter if you believe in the Holy Trinity or not but the fact that you accuse the Catholic Church of believing in it merely to make money is demeaning.
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auburnboattail



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Midwest

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2009 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Christ needs no deification

He is the alpha and omega the first and the last ,God the father, Son and holy spirit

In the beginning was the word, the word was with God the word was God
All that was made was made by him and for him
The word became flesh and we have all seen the light.

No council no apostle was needed to deify, he is that he is. the creator, savior of the world
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krp



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

monaco wrote:


We have four canonical gospels that were codified in Constantine's time, but there were many many others out there as well, some of which are quite accessible. How could they have decided on only four gospels three hundred years after Jesus lived and died? I wonder about all of these things.

Pam


Now I would have thought that if you had a PHD in religion you would know the answer to that question.

The concept of four gospels ("good news") was wrought by Ireaneus, who thought that by some scripture about the temple having four pillars then there would be four Gospels, no more and no less. Plus he used the idea there were are four winds, or four corners of the earth, to come up with the number four.

So rather than going through the gospels and deciding which were true and which were not, he had a pre-conceived notion that there should be four gospels and picked the four that he liked the best and rejected all the rest.
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krp



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Re: Jesus The Man Reply with quote

jbdean wrote:

All the answers are in the Bible. When we look outside ... that is when problems creep in.



When you look outside you see that there are problems in the Bible, with how it was put together, who wrote etc... That's why they tell you to accept what they are saying and not question it, because then you see that it is based on a house of cards.

Speaking of cards, that scripture from Timothy is a "get out of jail free" card for the Council of Nicea. No one that has bothered to take a look believes any longer that Timothy is authentic. In fact, I am one to believe that Timothy was forged and was created to make Paul look like he said things that he didn't. So isn't it convenient for the bishops that gathered at Nicea to find a scripture that says that all scripture is divine? Only they didn't find it, they made it up, to give themselves the cover of putting whatever they want into the canon, and berate anyone that questions the circular reference of that scripture that renders all scripture as inspired, which would also mean itself.
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krp



Joined: 30 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Jesus The Man Reply with quote

Toots wrote:
Interesting thought. Constintine was not baptized a Christian until he was on his death bed. He still worshipped the sun god. Reason for this is that he had his own family members murdered and this way he didn't feel guilty for it. His mother Helen a devout Catholic told him he had to build churches to make up for his sins. St. Peter's in Rome being the first.

Scripture does say that Mary was a virgin before and after the birh of Jesus. If God can do anything, why not?


Many warriors did not become baptized until they were dying because then they couldn't continue to fight once they were "Christian" and dedicated to "peace". Many had the practice of taking a priest with them onto the battlefield so that if they were injured and about to die, then the priest could baptize them. That was the origin of the modern army chaplain.
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krp



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: some thoughts Reply with quote

OHMAMA wrote:
Hello! Well, I certainly believe it was a miracle that Jesus was born to Mary. But I have 2 thoughs on this......1. being that maybe he was born to a Virgin and that his incarnation was something very special and was planned that way, OR....2, what if the scriptures are 100% accurate? What if Mary wasn't a virgin? What if they said she was because it goes against the WHOLE scriptures to say she may have had sex before marriage?? I don't mean to offend anyone IN ANY WAY....this is just a hypothosis. I have no proof, no one does. Either way, Jesus was very enilghtened and special and taught the world a great deal!
Buddhism is an Eastern religion.....or a phylosophy more like. Yes, they believe that you reincarnate to learn as much as you can. And you keep coming back til you get it right. That if you are a bad person in this life, karma will get you in the next. It's a very open and loving religion. They accept what anyone wants to believe. They even acknowledge Jesus. It's a very "live and let live" way of life. Harm no one and help everyone.
What religion/ philosophy are you jbdean? How about everyone else?


Essentially Jesus was an illegitimate child - regardless of the reason. The whole "virgin birth" and "impregnation by the holy spirit" thing was to assuage people's concern over that fact.

It is clear that whoever wrote what is called the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles, did not speak Hebrew and only read the Old Testament in the Greek. That is because it is declared that the "virgin birth" is the fulfillment of a prophecy in Isiah, where it is said that "this young woman" will bear a child. But the word in Hebrew for "young woman" was mistranslated to Greek in the Septuagint as "virgin", and the particular statement was referring to a particular young girl that was a contemporary of the person speaking.
It is clear that the author of Luke learned his Old Testament from the Greek, and retconned the story of Jesus' birth to be able to say "See, see... he fulfills the prophecy in Isaiah"

Now, I am not saying that Mary was not a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth. I don't know whether she was or not. What I am saying is the claim that Jesus' birth is the fulfillment of some Hebrew prophesy is just pure propaganda.

Now the Catholic charge that Mary died a virgin. Well that is just plain ridiculous. She was Jewish girl married to a Jewish man. The idea that they did not consummate the relationship is just preposterous.
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TheWriteGal



Joined: 18 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 5:52 pm    Post subject: Constantine Reply with quote

Man you've got some deep questions. LoL. But I'm enjoying it. It puts my Biblical Studies degree to good use.

Constantine was simply a convert who had the power and drive to promote his belief in Christ - despite the debates over how he approached it. But Jesus Himself was deified before He ever got here. People noticed from the very beginning that He was set apart - from the wise men who came from the Orient by following a star prior to His birth, to King Herod who so feared that the prophecy that he mass murdered little babies, to the religious leaders that He kept stumping with His inordinate knowledge and authority, etc... This is not to mention those who experienced a miracle from Him personally, or those who followed Him on a daily basis. My point: He was recognized as having supernatural qualities from the get-go, and in order to believe in Him as a "good" person, teacher, prophet, messenger, etc... we have to believe He was honest. Because truth is at the core of goodness. So, if we believe that He was good and honest, then that means He didn't lie. So when He claimed to be God....He had to be - because He was good, and honest. See? He deified Himself. In fact, deity doesn't need to be deified because God is already Who He is. Now, when confronted with this fact/reasoning regarding Christ as an honest and good being, some folks I know have backtracked and then said He must have been deluded. But if that is the case, then why believe in anything He did - much of which was beyond the ability of this natural world? If we discount any part of who and what Jesus claimed to be, we by root logic, would have to discount it all.

This topic makes me think of Lee Strobel and his book/film titled "The Case For Christ." He was a DEVOUT atheist and award winning Chicago journalist who set out to disprove Christianity when his wife got saved. He used every principal of investigative reporting he had - but the more he dug, the more convinced he became that there was not just a God - but that Jesus, in fact, was His earthly representation. If you haven't read the book, grab a copy off ebay. It's a quick, engaging read that puts the entire debate into easy and practical terms. You can also watch Lee's film free on Hulu at the following link: http://www.hulu.com/watch/141396/case-for-christ
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DrMicHunter



Joined: 19 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Your interest in information on Jesus Reply with quote

Greetings Mr. Allen, I read in Parade Magazine that you are interested in learning more about Jesus. I have just released a book that may interest you. Back To The Source: The Spiritual Principles Of Jesus. It has three sections. First, description of the principles. Second the psychological factors, including stages of faith, that make it difficult to practice these principles, and third application of these principles to issues we face today including, war, wealth, the treatment of women, the treatment of gays and lesbians. If you want to see more about it you can go to Amazon.com. I am licensed as a psychologist and licensed marriage and family therapist and this book is the result of 30 years of working with recovering alcoholics and other drug addicts. If you are interested in a copy I'd be happy to send you one as long as I have an address where it will actually get to you. Best wishes.
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ngolden



Joined: 23 Sep 2015
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Jesus... the Man. Reply with quote

TimAllen wrote:
Was the Emperor Constantine responsible for the deification of Jesus? Jesus was both the Prophet and the Messenger, but what condition would the Christian world be in if it was true that Jesus was also a man just as us? Would that have minimized the impact of his words?
T


I believe the question of the deity of Christ is critical to the Christian faith. I wrote a paper on the subject that I hope clarifies why:

THE PREEXISTENCE OF CHRIST: AN EXAMINATION OF SCRIPTURAL EVIDENCE AND ITS ROLE IN THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

Thesis Statement
I will demonstrate that there is sufficient evidence in the Scriptures for the preexistence of Christ and that it is a necessary component of Christian faith.


I. Introduction
The Christian faith is based on the Christ of Scripture: Hebrews 12:2, “Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” What qualifies Him for this unique role is based on both His deity and His humanity. As a crucial aspect of His deity, Scripture teaches that Christ is preexistent. I will demonstrate that there is sufficient evidence in the Scriptures for the preexistence of Christ and that it is a necessary component of Christian faith, for it is in His preexistence that we see the mystery of our conviction, that God is both God the Father and God the Son. As McCready aptly points out, “Our history makes sense only when seen against the transcendent reality of Jesus, who entered that history.”1

II. Prolegomena
The topic of the preexistence of Christ in regards to Christian doctrine has different interpretations. In regards to this discussion, the orthodox view is one of real or personal preexistence, in that Christ existed personally as the Son of God before becoming incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth.2 Its personal nature is derived from His position as the second person in the Trinity, and real because He not only existed in the mind of God as intention, but He actually existed.3 It should be noted that this definition does not include the humanity of Jesus, for that is not preexistent, having the Word become flesh (John 1:14-1Cool.
There is a difficulty shared by anyone attempting an exegetical journey on the
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1 Douglas McCready, He Came Down From Heaven (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 2005), 13.

2 McCready, He Came Down From Heaven, 15.

3 McCready, He Came Down From Heaven, 16.

preexistence of Christ, being as McCready puts it, there is a necessary interconnection of His preexistence with His incarnation, for one does not do what is needed without the other. While each teaching is distinct, they can not be isolated from each other and must be understood in light of each other. For in Mcready’s words, “Incarnation is meaningless apart from the preexistent Christ, and Christ’s preexistence is irrelevant apart from the incarnation of the Son to save us and to reveal God to us.”4 And therein lies the necessity of it: because it is the Christ of the holy Scriptures that we build our foundation of faith upon: Ephesians 2:20, “built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.”

III. Various Viewpoints
The preexistence of Jesus is directly connected to His eternal nature, and is often a topic when discussing the claim to His deity. Many viewpoints have sprung up across the centuries, notably the debate at the Council of Nicea in 325 between Arius and Athanasius, both priests in Alexandria. Arius, influenced by Origen, believed that Jesus as Son was created by God as His first created act, and as such was first-begotten by Him. He describes the subordination of the Son to the Father as, “There was a time when He was not.” Athanasius directly opposed this view, basing his argument as a point of soteriology: only God could save and Christ as God made man to accomplish that purpose. It is a necessary correlation that Jesus is God and as such, has always existed eternally. Athanasius won the debate and we see evidence of his victory in the Nicene Creed.5 Jehovah’s Witnesses today have a theology similar to Arius. Rather than co-eternal with the Father, Jesus was the first and greatest of Creation as the incarnation of the
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4 McCready, He Came Down From Heaven, 26.

5 Alan F. Johnson and Robert Webber, What Christians Believe (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1993), 85-86.


Archangel Michael.6
The importance of understanding the preexistence of Christ cannot be overestimated, for it is in knowledge of the tenets of Christian faith that allows a person to weather the storms of false doctrine so prevalent in our world today, and enables them to bring others out of the storm safely. As C.S. Lewis writes, “Theology means ‘the science of God’, and I think any man who wants to think about God at all would like to have the clearest and most accurate ideas about Him which are available.”7 He goes further, “Consequently, if you do not listen to Theology, that will not mean that you have no ideas about God. It will mean that you have a lot of wrong ones---bad, muddled, out-of-date ideas. For a great many ideas about God which are trotted out as novelties today are simply the ones which real Theologians tried centuries ago and rejected. To believe in the popular religion of modern England is retrogression-like believing the earth is flat. For when you get down to it, is not the popular idea of Christianity simply this: that Jesus Christ was a great moral teacher and that if only we took His advice we might be able to establish a better social order and avoid another war? Now, mind you, that is quite true. But it tells you much less than the whole truth about Christianity and it has no practical importance at all.”8
Lewis addresses the crux of the matter: who is Jesus and why does it matter if He is preexistent or not if we just need to take His advice? In response, it’s worth reviewing the Word-Flesh Christology doctrine of Apollonarius and the response of the early church that, “Only that
which God became is saved. Any theory of the Incarnation that denied this soteriological
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6 Walter A. Elwell, ed., Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 2nd ed. (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2001), 625.

7 C. S. Lewis, The Complete C. S. Lewis Signature Classics (New York: HarperOne, 2007), 127.

8 Lewis, The Complete C. S. Lewis Signature Classics, 128-129.
axiom had to be judged as faulty.”9 A second axiom, “that only God can save,” was put forth by the early church in response to the Word-Man Christology doctrine of Eusthasius.10 These axioms illustrate the centrality of the doctrine of the preexistence of Christ as a necessary component of the Christian faith because they affirm the divine nature and the interconnection of the incarnation: The first axiom expresses the contention that Jesus must be fully man in order for man to be saved and the second axiom reflects the truism that only God saves, therefore Jesus must be divine.
The following points summarize Grudem’s view on the matter, that the deity of Jesus, and thus His preexistence, is necessary:
1. Only an infinite God could bear the full penalty for our sins
2. Salvation is from the Lord (Jonah 2:9)
3. Only someone being fully God could qualify as a mediator between God and man; both in reconciling man with God and revealing God to man11
Our brief examination illustrates Lewis’ point about the importance of theology for the average Christian and considering the conclusions of those who have come before us. This does not mean that we should not be willing to examine a doctrine for new truth that has not been previously discerned, but that we should proceed with care, always remembering that biblical truths are not meant to reflect popular culture. A disturbing trend is occurring today in liberal theology, in regards to the preexistence, and thus the deity of Christ, and many different

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9 Johnson and Webber, What Christians Believe, 130.

10 Johnson and Webber, What Christians Believe, 131.

11 Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology: an Introduction to Biblical Doctrine (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994), 553.

viewpoints have been offered to conform with our postmodern world. Rather than respond to these viewpoints individually, we will do some exegetical work and use Scripture to light our way as we seek a response to the rationalist and humanistic trends of today’s society.

IV. Old Testament Passage: Micah 5:2
“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times.”
Micah is thought to be a contemporary of Isaiah, prophesying sometime between 750 and 686 B.C. He is noted for predicting the fall of Samaria and the inevitable devastation of Judah. The context of this passage is in Micah’s deliverance of an oracle of judgment and salvation.12 Verse 4 is a declaration that while it seems the Davidic kingdom is ending, it will eventually be renewed to even greater glory in the coming of a Messianic Deliverer.13
Of key interest to our supposition that Christ is preexistent in the context of this verse is its nature of a messianic prophecy that contains the words “whose origins are from old, from ancient times” in describing Him: His beginnings were before His human birth, He is eternal God.14
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12 Kenneth L. Barker, ed., NIV Study Bible (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2002), 1400.

13 Barker, NIV Study Bible, 1394-1395.

14 Warren W. Wiersbe, Old Testament, The Prophets: The Bible Exposition Commentary (Colorado Springs: Cook Communications Ministries, 2002), 396.

Walvoord, pointing to Matthew 2:3-6, comments that this verse was understood by the chief priests and teachers of the Law as referring to the Messiah. Further, he notes the literal Hebrew of “ancient times” or “everlasting” is “days of immeasurable time.”15
Anthony Tomasino, in his word study of the Hebrew word עֹולָם olam (ancient in Micah 5:2), refers to el olam: translated in the NIV as “eternal” in Genesis 21:33 and “everlasting” in Isaiah 40:28, as a title for God that references His antiquity. Tomasino notes that the text in Genesis was most likely an epithet that had been used by the Syro-Canaanites, which the Israelites had adopted to describe the Lord. Olam, then has a connotation attached to it of an attribute of God that is also exhibited in the reference to the Messiah in Micah 5:2, and even more compelling to His preexistence is that the attribute is one of being eternal.16
A.R Fausett in his exegetical work of Micah notes an exciting literary device to illustrate preexistence in this passage from the King James version:
“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
Fausett writes, “goings forth … from everlasting—The plain antithesis of this clause, to ‘come forth out of thee’ (from Beth-lehem), shows that the eternal generation of the Son is meant. The terms convey the strongest assertion of infinite duration of which the Hebrew language is capable (compare Ps 90:2; Pr 8:22, 23; Jn 1:1). Messiah’s generation as man coming
forth unto God to do His will on earth is from Beth-lehem; but as Son of God, His goings forth
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15 J.F. Walvoord and R.B. Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures (Wheaton: Victor Books, 1983), 1486.

16 Willem A. VanGemeren, ed., New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1997), 345-346.

are from everlasting.”17
In other words, it is through the contrast of ideas (Jesus as man and Jesus as God) that we see the Messiah will come as a man from Bethlehem (His incarnate state) but He is the Son of God because His goings forth, (His works and thus His existence) is from eternity.

V. Old Testament Theophany
A theophany is one of the means of special revelation; a manifestation of God that we can perceive with our external senses.18 Especially relevant to the preexistence of Christ is a theophany occurring in the Old Testament. We see evidence of such in Daniel 3. When Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego refused to engage in idolatry and were cast into a fiery furnace, a fourth man was described as being in the furnace with them. All four men appeared unharmed, but just as three had entered the furnace, it was three that were brought out; leaving the fate of the fourth man a mystery, along with his identity. Our only clue is in Daniel 3:25:
“He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
Walvoord writes of Nebuchadnezzar watching the men in the furnace. Upon seeing them unharmed and walking around, as well as a fourth man with them, Nebuchadnezzar describes the fourth as “like a son of the gods,” and Walvoord comments that the fourth was probably the preincarnate Christ.19 According to Wiersbe, the king thought it was an angel and thus the
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17 A.R. Faussett, A Commentary,Critical and Explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments (Oak Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), (Mic 5:2).

18 W.A. Elwell and P.W. Comfort, Tyndale Bible Dictionary (Wheaton: Tyndale House Publishers, 2001), 1251.
19 J.F. Walvoord and R.B. Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures, 1340.

reference to “sons of the gods,” but the man was Jesus, appearing in one of His preincarnate manifestations in the Old Testament.20
J. Oswald Sanders notes that our Lord’s first appearance on earth did not occur at the virgin birth; Scripture records “theophanies” without explanation on various occasions. Sanders points out that it is the second Person of the Trinity that is generally accepted as making the appearance since in John 1:18, “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.” Sanders records Genesis 32:30, Joshua 5:13-15, and Daniel 3:25 as theophanies in the Old Testament. He comments, “It appears that in Old Testament times God came in the form of a man, whereas in the incarnation He actually became man.” Sanders further notes that many of His visitations were in the form of an angel as “The Angel of Jehovah,” although He was in no way in angelic form in His incarnation; He would not have been fully man and therefore not qualified to do what only fully man and fully God could do to save us from our sins.21

VI. A Brief Look At The Trinity
It is of definite value to mention the role of the Son, the second Person of the Trinity, existing in the Old Testament, which further testifies to the Preexistence of Christ. Developed through progressive revelation, the biblical concept of the Trinity is evident in affirming the unity of God with statements that include Deuteronomy 6:4, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.” Because of the polytheistic religions that were prevalent in the land, these statements served as a reminder to the Israelites not to participate in the pagan customs of
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20 Warren W. Wiersbe, Old Testament, The Prophets:The Bible Exposition Commentary (Colorado Springs: Cook Communications Ministries, 2002), 396.

21 J. Oswald Sanders, The Incomparable Christ, (Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2009), 33-34.

their neighbors. While the Trinity was not fully known in the Old Testament, there are implications of its existence through God’s nearness and creativity that were more fully developed by New Testament writers. The same language used to give distinct personality in John’s prologue regarding the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:1-4) is found in the Old Testament Scriptures: the word of God is recognized as the agent of creation: Psalm 33:6, “By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth” and revelation and salvation: Psalm 107:20, “He sent out his word and healed them; he rescued them from the grave.”22

VII. New Testament Passages
In the New Testament we can find numerous passages that support the claim that Jesus is pre-existent. The most well known would probably be the book of John’s prologue (John 1:1-1Cool where the apostle John describes “The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.” C. Norman Bartlett notes that in the Epistles it is made obvious that everywhere the deity of Christ is taken for granted. He writes, “We need to fix firmly in mind that not only during his brief earthly life, but from all eternity Christ was the incarnation of God. He was the eternally pre-existent Word. That is to say, Christ was not a mere man whom God so filled with himself that he became divine; he was the eternal Son of God who in time was made flesh…From all eternity, according to the unmistakable teaching of Scripture, Christ was the full and perfect expression Of God’s inmost self.”23
When examining the pre-existence of Christ in the New Testament, there are at least two
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22 C. Brand, C. Draper, and A. England, Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary, (Nashville: Holman Bible Publishers, 2003), 1625-1626.

23 C. Norman Bartlett, “The Deity Of Jesus Christ As Set Forth In The Epistles” Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 086:341 (January 1929): 70-84.

approaches that can be taken. Passages such as John 10:30 speak to the deity of Christ, “I and the Father are one.” This speaks of the fact that Jesus and the Father are the same essence, although not the same persons.24 One can make the following supposition from this passage: God is eternal. Jesus is God. Jesus must be eternal (pre-existent) also. A second approach would be to study what Jesus said more directly when He was teaching in the temple courts in regards to His own pre-existence. John 8:58 is a very literal example: “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” On the surface, we can immediately see that Jesus is teaching of His existence prior to His present earthly ministry, by stating He existed before Abraham. But to the Jewish audience, it meant so much more. His usage of “I am” was an expression of his oneness with the Father and consequently his eternal nature.25
A brief discussion on the importance of “I am” in the Old Testament is warranted here. In Exodus 3:14, in response to Moses asking God who shall he say sent him, “God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” Albert H. Baylis explores its significance, noting that because it ties in with the verb “I AM,” most Hebrew scholars agree in its pronunciation as “Yahweh.” But he goes further, pointing to God’s response to Moses’ initial objection in the first part of Exodus 3:12, for clues to its import: “And God said, ‘I will be with you.’” Baylis notes that “I will be” is the same word as “I am” in verse 14, and carries the same significance. He writes, “So in the name YHWH is wrapped up the notion that God is present to help. In other words, God is faithful. He is there to act on behalf of those who know him. ‘I am who I am’ means: ‘I am there, wherever it may be…I am really
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24 Barker, NIV Study Bible, 1650.

25 Barker, NIV Study Bible , 1647.

there.’ Furthermore, the name Yahweh is associated with the fulfillment of his promise. As
Yahweh he has promised to bring Israel out of her misery in Egypt and bring her into the land of the Canaanites.”26 The significance of its usage in the Old Testament sheds light on the import of the statement of Jesus in John 8:58. God redeems Israel in the Exodus of the Old Testament and “I am” is staying true to His character in the person of Jesus as Redeemer in the New Testament.
We can extrapolate further and combining these two approaches: the statement Jesus says, “I and the Father are one” is the basis of the “I am” declarations of Jesus in the New Testament.27 It is this truth that brings together the fact that Jesus is God, He is the “I AM” of the Old Testament. Walter Dunnett sums up this idea concisely: that Jesus takes upon Himself the title of deity from the Old Testament Scriptures by using the “I am” phrases in John:
1. “I am the bread of life” (6:35)
2. “I am the light of the world” (8:12; 9:5)
3. “I am the door” (10:7, 9)
4. “I am the good shepherd” (10:11)
5. “I am the resurrection and the life” (11:25)
6. “I am the way, the truth, and the life” (14:6)
7. “I am the true vine” (15:1)

For this was the title by which God revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14. Dunnett also comments on the exclusive nature of His claims, noting that in the Greek, “I am” is an emphatic grammatical construction. He concludes, “The alternative to eating ‘the bread of life’ is death; if one refuses ‘the light,’ he remains in darkness. He is ‘the only way;’ no one comes to God except by Him. He is the ‘true vine,’ not an imitation.” 28

____________________
26 Albert H. Baylis, From Creation to the Cross, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996), 103.

27 Barker, NIV Study Bible, 1650.

28 W.M. Dunnett, Exploring the New Testament, (Wheaton: Crossway Books, 2001), 28.

VIII. Implications
Bartlett writes that faith in the deity of Jesus was firmly rooted in the hearts of believers before the Epistles were written. His rationale is that the early Christians came to believe in His divinity and equality to God by association; they were present when He was doing for them what only God was capable of. He writes, “Through faith in him they found themselves laying hold of moral and spiritual power immeasurably beyond anything they possessed themselves. They knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christ was living in them and through them.”29 But where does that leave the Christians of later generations? This is a critical point that speaks to the heart of the Christian faith, because without the preexistence of Christ, Jesus is not fully God, and if He was not fully God and fully man when He went to the cross, there is no Christian faith. Providentially, God has provided us the evidence by His special revelation so that we can have the same confidence as those early Christians by examining the Scriptures.

IX. Conclusion
From the Arian heresy that the early church responded to in Nicea, to the search for the historical Jesus today, there have been attacks on the deity of Christ throughout history. Because the divinity of our Lord Jesus is central to the Christian faith, and a necessary correlation of His deity is His preexistence, it is an essential doctrine that cannot be mistaken; for His preexistence speaks of His deity and His deity and His incarnation speak of His complete role as Savior: Only that which God became can be saved and only God saves.30 It cannot be otherwise. Walvoord sums up the importance of providing Scriptural evidence that Jesus Christ is the preexistent Son, the second person in the Trinity and equal to the Father: “In view of the ancient and modern
____________________
29 C. Norman Bartlett, “The Deity Of Jesus Christ As Set Forth In The Epistles”, 71.
30 Johnson and Webber, What Christians Believe, 130-131.

attempts to reduce in one way or another the deity of Christ to a level below that of the First Person, the Father, it is necessary to emphasize certain aspects of the preincarnate Person of Christ. Crucial in this argument is the proof that Christ is eternal.”31 Proof that is found in the Scriptures! Necessary because:
2 John 1:9, “Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.”
____________________
31 John F. Walvoord, “Series in Christology Part 1: The Preincarnate Son of God” Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 104:413 (January 1947): 31.
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Barker, Kenneth, ed. New International Version Study Bible. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2002.

Bartlett, C. Norman. “The Deity Of Jesus Christ As Set Forth In The Epistles.” Bibliotheca
Sacra Volume 086:341 (January 1929): 70-84.

Baylis, Albert H. From Creation to the Cross. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996.

Bender, Thorwald W. “Ferre’s Christology: ‘Christ in You the Hope of Glory’.” Journal of the
Evangelical Theological Society Volume 01, No. 2 (Spring 1958): 1-13.

Brand, C., C. Draper, and A. England. Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary. Nashville: Holman
Bible Publishers, 2003.

Dunnett, W. M. Exploring the New Testament. Wheaton: Crossway Books, 2001.
Elwell, Walter A., ed. Evangelical Dictionary of Theology. 2nd ed. Grand Rapids: Baker
Academic, 2001.

Elwell, W. A., and P.W. Comfort. Tyndale Bible dictionary. Wheaton: Tyndale House, 2001.

Faussett, A.R. A Commentary,Critical and Explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. Oak
Harbor: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997.

Gathercole, Simon J. The Preexistent Son: Recovering the Christologies of Matthew, Mark, and
Luke. Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2006.

Grudem, Wayne. Systematic Theology: an Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Grand Rapids:
Zondervan, 1994.

Johnson, Alan F., and Robert E. Webber. What Christians Believe. Grand Rapids: Zondervan,
1993.

Lewis, C. S. The Complete C. S. Lewis Signature Classics. New York: HarperOne, 2007.

Lockyer, H. Sr., F. F. Bruce, and R. K. Harrison, eds. Illustrated Dictionary of the Bible
Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2003.

McCready, Douglas. He Came Down from Heaven: the Preexistence of Christ and Christian
Faith. Leicester, England: IVP Academic, 2005.

Sanders, J. Oswald. The Incomparable Christ. Chicago: Moody Publishers, 2009.

Shelley, Bruce L. Church History in Plain Language. 2nd ed. Dallas: Thomas Nelson, 1996.


VanGemeren, Willem A., ed. New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology &
Exegesis. Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1997.

Walvoord, John F. “Series in Christology Part 1: The Preincarnate Son of God.” Bibliotheca Sacra Volume 104, No. 413 (January 1947): 31.

Walvoord, J. F. and R. B. Zuck. The Bible Knowledge Commentary : An Exposition of the
Scriptures. Wheaton: Victor Books, 1983.

Wiersbe, Warren W. Old Testament, The Prophets: The Bible Exposition Commentary. Colorado Springs: Cook Communications Ministries, 2001.
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auburnboattail



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Midwest

PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It really boils down to a Question Jesus asked: Who do you say I am ?

Jesus told us the answer. I am God, I am Son of God, I am the Holy spirit.
All that was Made I made. All was made by me and for me
All who come to the father come through me
He is God, Took Human Form ( retaining all Godliness), Lived perfectly was crucified for our sins, was raised from the dead, Ascended to heaven, Rules today, dwells with us in spirit,
Will come again to collect and resurrect the faithful and cast the unbelievers into Hell.
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Gdog



Joined: 26 Aug 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If God has infinite love and infinite compassion why in the fuk would he cast unbelievers into eternal suffering?.
You don't believe in me mate? Right! Into the fire ye go then!

Here mate I know u treat cnts well and that n u set a good example for yer children n that but u didnae go tae church every Sunday. ... right into the fire you go. That will teach yeh!

Oh mate do u not believe in me?....oh that's a shame coz y could have had eternal euphoria....now yer skin is goin to melt off coz yer goin jn the fire ya bawbag!

Get in that fire!!!!!

LOAD OF PISH MATE!
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auburnboattail



Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 70
Location: Midwest

PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because he has infinite compassion he gave you free will and such if you chose not to follow him in life, he will not force you to follow him in death.
All have fallen short or sinned ( but the sin is forgiven if you ask for forgiveness and repent and have sin washed away through grace and baptism.
Hell is separation from God(no light) Hell was made for Satan as he also had free will and fell into sin, if you are not of Christ then you are of Satan and
will reside separate from God in Hell.
Your argument is not with me. It is with GOD, Christianity is who you say Jesus is.
You are free not to believe (God given attribute)
God being holy cannot be in presence of sin, as such send his son to intercede (sacrifice himself) to provide a way to cleanse or sin to make us presentable in his presence.
If we do not accept the gift of this cleaning we cannot enter into his presence and he will not force us to.
Think of it this way mate, you can raise your child with love and provide all the great things life has to offer, but while living in your house you have rules.
The child breaks the rule and you discipline them ( do you not still love them and have compassion) and what if they persist and behavior becomes dangerous would you not separate yourself ?
its that simple
And yes heaven is perfect no sin or pain that is the reward for faithfulness.
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ReverenttotheBuilder



Joined: 27 Mar 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:04 am    Post subject: Re: Jesus... the Man. Reply with quote

TimAllen wrote:
Was the Emperor Constantine responsible for the deification of Jesus? Jesus was both the Prophet and the Messenger, but what condition would the Christian world be in if it was true that Jesus was also a man just as us? Would that have minimized the impact of his words?
T
'
Jesus is more than just a man, He is the divine man that is the fulness of all deity, 1 Tm.3:16 and 6:13-16, come and let us speak and reason together, so I can show you our God with us Immanuel Mt.1:23, seen in Is.9:6 and Is.7:14 seen in Ex.3:14 and in Jn.8:24 & 58 because God changes not, Mal.3:6 seen in Heb.13:8 as well: after all Jesus knew who who He was in Jn.14:6 and 10:30 seen in 14:7-18, in Spirit and in Truth Jn.1:17 and Jn.4:23-24 and 12:45-50, after all if we do a search on the glory of God, that will not be given to another said by God Himself to Isaiah in chapter 42:8 and 48:11-12, which is seen in Jn.11:40, Lk.17:18; 2 Cor.4:1-6 even in 1 Cor.2:8, if we have been Born Again of His Holy Spirit in us, we too are to have His mind, 1 Cor.2:1-16, because it is to be God teaching us and leading us into all His truths, Jn.14:18 & 26 seen in Jn.15:1-26 & 27 to Jn.16:1-13 and notice verse 28 here as well: Come talk to me at on of my contact points and we will discuss Systematic Theology: According to the Holy Spirit, not man's dogma but what the Lord said, so that we too could know Him for who He is; our God with us, Lk.17:20-21, who will never forsake us, If we love Him and obey His every word to us, Jn.14:15 and those of His Ordained Apostles, Jn.15:20, seen in 2 Tm.3:14-17 and Col.3:17, as each of us work out our own salvation Phil.2:12, His way Lk.24:47 seen in Ac.2:38-40 and Ac.2:1-4, even today.
Lord's Way Ministries International & Bible College
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1 Tm.3:16 & 6:11-21; Is.60:1-22; Is.40: 3; Mt.4:4, worshiping in Spirit and in Truth Jn.4:23-24, Jn.1:17; the One True God in Jesus reconciling the world unto Himself, 2 Cor.5:19-21 so that we to can come out from among this world that lies in wickedness, 1 Jn.5:19 and worship the One True God Jesus Christ seen in 1 Jn.5:20; Is.9:6 who is the Mighty God! The First and the Last, Rev.4:8, who is the Holy Spirit manifested in the flesh, 1 Tm.3:16 because God is a Spirit seen and talked about by Jesus Himself in Jn.4:24; and when you have seen Jesus, you have seen the one who sent Him, Jn.12:45; for they are one in the same, Jn.10:30!

Gal.4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
~Even so, if I be persecuted for His sake, I find myself in good company, in the company of the Elect!~
quote by
Rev. G. L. Boyett

(Is.59:1-21) The Lord will always have a prophet, for His generation, (Amos 3:7-Cool


Ecc.12:7-14; Ps.2:1-12; Is.55:1-13; Mal.3:16-18
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grandpa2390



Joined: 31 Mar 2017
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Jesus... the Man. Reply with quote

TimAllen wrote:
Was the Emperor Constantine responsible for the deification of Jesus? Jesus was both the Prophet and the Messenger, but what condition would the Christian world be in if it was true that Jesus was also a man just as us? Would that have minimized the impact of his words?
T


If Jesus is just a man, then the impact of his words would be very diminished. He would have been just another man who said wise things. We would look at him the same way we look at all of the individuals that Neighbor Wilson quoted.

But Jesus claimed to be God, so we would also consider him to be a bit crazy (and not in a good way).
It is true that Constantine ended the persecution against Christians, but I believe that was by the Will of God.
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